For purpose of 2001. Clearly, a wide variety of property types are referenced in 170, wherein the broad category of "property" gets parsed apart based on holding period, holding purpose, nature of asset, how acquired, etc. Effective July 1, 2020, there is a new law in Florida (Section 731.1065 of the Florida Probate Code) that treats "precious metals in any tangible form, such as bullion or You keep hanging on to the status quo, how it is under the existing rulesrules that came about before the U.S. decided to mint gold coins (again). I simply do not believe that the a U.S. gold coin, legal tender, is like a painting, when it comes to charitable deductions. And a judge might just be the one to do it. Code specific to exchanges, no? Couldn't have anything to do with recognition of the fact that it's tangible personal property, could it? Likewise, I wouldn't bet the farm on your "out of context" estate tax rulings, as I mentioned above. My writing gets easier, as you dig yourself into a deeper hole. Buying or selling a home is one of the biggest financial decisions an individual will ever make. In the realization area, the personal property distinction wasn't really relevant, all that was relevant was whether or not a realization event had occurred. So are ETFs that invest in gold bullion. They've just said it's property other than money. Chris writes: Chris's problem is that apparently he wrote some kind of article and somehow managed not to hear the laughter. In this case, the desk and other equipment used for your business, such as a computer and a printer may be taxable as personal property. So, I pointed to the one place in the IRC when there's a relevant reference to Gold - Sec 408 - wherein the gold coins at issue (I'm pretty sure) were carved out as not being treated as a collectible. If you don't care for the estate tax laws try the ones for 1031, PLR 8117053 -- exchange of bullion for kruggerands qualifies under 1031, Rev. It qualifies for a 1031 exchange with gold bullion. Thats because, in most cases, the government isnt going to tax you for your desk. Or, maybe his intent is to hold it just like a stock, or a piece of real estate, things that give an FMV deduction without a related use issue. 
dollar ($25,000) limit described in this subdivision. Chattels refers to all type of property. Even a dime gets included in one's estate, based on it's value. Still, its nice to see the ludicrous nature off my example woke you up. Webhow can something like mccarthyism be used as a partisan weapon against another political party? The Revenue Ruling (and the PLR) both say qualifying exchange. If not circulating, it's property other than money. After all, you already paid sales tax to buy it. Which certificate of deposit account is best? And, you can change your mind about who will receive the coins as often as you like. Our goal is to give you the best advice to help you make smart personal finance decisions. WebAny of the assets listed above can be considered tenants-in-common property if they are created that way. We'd like to know about Section 170. "However, the IRS apparently was ready to reverse its position in a later PLR that was withdrawn because the taxpayer died. From an income tax standpoint, in the non-charitable context, the courts have had a lot of trouble dealing with these coinsand whether or not a legal tender gold coin is "money" or "property other than money." So, your house, your driveway, your tool shed, your backyard garden these are all considered real property. You keep ignoring your own 408 citation. Of course, the taxpayer might take the position that, since it's money, we deduct FMV. Point is that 170 has parsed through a lot of property types to provide guidance as to the 170 tax treatment. The law also (in all cited cases) makes a clear distinction between currency value and market value. capacity at any time during which the writing may have been executed, the writing Unless you are suggesting that the people who make this assertion are naively believing in an urban legend the specific help is that nine months after the ruling was issued the IRS decided that if you take the PLR position your deduction will be disallowed. Then comes the law. The theory that calls for taxing the value of something (or imposing a sales tax) is different than the theory that allows for personal deductions, including charitable contributions. ? What is a bundle of rights in real estate? If I do work for a client and get paid with a Koala Bear, a car, gold coins, a piano, a house, a computer, or whatever, it's taxable. Rev. In other words, substantial authority is certainly nice, but it doesn't mean you're gonna win. Part of the problem, as I see it, and as noted a few times, is that we're dealing with a law (charitable contribution of tangible personalty) that came before the Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985. The physical clothes you make are tangible property, while the brand the logo and any trademarks associated with your company are intangible. I dont think that theres an answer to this question other than the PLR, so if the FMV of the coins is more than cost, you might as well take the approach that best favors your client and deduct FMV. I'm going to go back and rewrite the original question: If you take US gold coinss with no significant numismatic value and melt them down into gold ingots and make a charitable donation of the ingots what value would you take as a deduction. And, if we must go there, we should cite the relevant parts from the RR. (I've already said this). Gold coins are more akin to stock than a publicly traded ETF holding bullion. Bankrate.com is an independent, advertising-supported publisher and comparison service. their normal use as legal tender for payment. 
Websecondhand dealer does not include a coin dealer or participants at gun shows or events, as defined ingots of gold, or silver, or other precious metals. All rights reserved. payment of public and private debts, but does not include coins or currency kept or Also, thank you for the article you wrote, Chris. 1)Does the client get the bullion value of the gold as a charitable donation deduction (i.e. (h) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply: (1) Tangible personal property means articles of personal or household use or ornament, including, but not limited Web(4) "Personal property" means property that is not real property. WebTangible Personal Property (TPP) means all goods, chattels, and other articles of value (excluding some vehicular items) capable of manual possession and whose chief value is intrinsic to the article itself. And, I think it was you who said, "Bull," when I suggested OP's coins fit into 408(m). Rul. But 170 falls short in the "personal property" arena. Go find a charity that will take your position. Get in contact with Michele Petry via Email. However, if youre using that desk as part of a small business or in your role as a freelance worker, it may be a different story. Bankrate follows a strict editorial policy, Sounds like you should ask the charity to clarify exactly how the gift should be properly reported on a tax return. The content created by our editorial staff is objective, factual, and not influenced by our advertisers. WebThe same rules with respect to interstate sales that are applicable to sales and purchases of other tangible personal property also apply to sales of coins, silver and gold bullion, and The Gold Bullion Coin Act was codified within Title 31 of the United States Code (USC) Money and Finance, including 31 USC Sections 5112(a)(7) through (a)(10). WebThese should not be considered personal property but should be considered real property because they would remain with the building. to, furniture, furnishings, automobiles, boats, and jewelry, as well as precious metals (c) The writing may be written or signed before or after the execution of the will I fail to see the logic in assuming the language "coins not held primarily as a medium of exchange" has relevance only to rare coins when that same language is widely used to apply to all precious metal coins. How much should you contribute to your 401(k)? Anyway, I get it. I think we can do so with a great many things. For the same number of times, I point out that the law makes a clear distinction between cash in your pocket which is tangible and cash in a bank account, which is intangible. They are not rare and do not have any value beyond their bullion value (no numismatic value). writings, the most recent writing controls. If you actually read what Dave wrote, he was speaking about "guidance"as in cases, rulings, and the like. How about finding a source that thinks PLR 9225036 would be affirmed? "}}]}, Bankrate, LLC NMLS ID# 1427381 | NMLS Consumer Access 2)Since it is not considered tangible pers property, I assume the donation is not limited to basis, correct? While we adhere to strict 
And a penny and a nickel and a quarter Tangible when you are holding them in your hand, intangible when you are holding them in a bank account. OP is dealing with a substantial donation of $40k (of what are likely, highly appreciated coins) and I think the more information he has, the better, on both sides of the issue - not just for taking a position on the return, but for defending, and winning, the case if it comes down to it. And there do not seem to be any opinions supporting. You can touch it, move it and play it. this post may contain references to products from our partners. My mind is closed from the standpoint that I do not believe we should always apply old paradigms to new issues. Bankrate follows a strict It goes over the subject but does not get into the nitty gritty, leaving one to wonder. You make no sense. Then come the Regs. You can certainly touch and feel the stock certificate. If the issue is unresolved it would be only because no-one wants to try your method and face the preparer penalties. I'd also be fine treating these coins like stock. Rev. as to the date of its execution, and it is established that the testator lacked testamentary And, I'm also smart enough to know that OP's client has a pretty good case to make some waves with this issue. Staff Login Find me a charitable letter that actually has all the right words. We value your trust. It can be valued just as easily, you just weigh it instead of looking it up on a stock chart. You know, an actual ruling - or case - involving U.S. legal tender gold coins given as a donation. I don't dispute that and never have. that item shall be disposed of pursuant to the remainder clause of the will. Bankrates editorial team writes on behalf of YOU the reader. It is clear that Sec 170 parses through the one massively broad category known generically as "property" and slots specific types into particular places, and in each particular place, you'll find the charitable rules for your more narrow type of property. One option is to itemize such specific bequests in a Will. Fair enough. If we did, Dennis, we have a realization event every time there was inflation or deflation - you know, as purchasing power changes. I think that's a more complete scenario. The IRS considers everything that cannot be classified as real property or intangible property such as patents, trademarks, digital software and contracts to be tangible property. Therefore, this compensation may impact how, where and in what order products appear within listing categories, except where prohibited by law for our mortgage, home equity and other home lending products. It has weight, and it can be measured, too. Each evidences something else. In addition, the position described above is inconsistent with the reality that when sold the gain in Krugerrands (and other gold coins), gold bullion, and shares in ETFs that invest in gold bullion is taxed as if they are tangible personal property." Things evolve and things change. So what if it says "like kind." What to do when you lose your 401(k) match. Tangible personal property is located inside real property. It can be pledged as security for the lender while procuring a loan. They should know, eh? This compensation may impact how and where products appear on this site, including, for example, the order in which they may appear within the listing categories, except where prohibited by law for our mortgage, home equity and other home lending products. That's my opinion. (2) If the writing directing disposition of tangible personal property omits a statement Your "check" is twenty times the size of my coin. Did you know we have a TA member who is expert, truly outstanding, on questions about gold. . And go ahead and focus on those two words "but instead," two words you left out of part of the other stuff you left out in your "summary" sentence of the RR. Take our 3 minute quiz and match with an advisor today. I couldn't. the gold watch goes to her daughter and the stamp collection goes to her son. Ok, Dennis. LPP includes all or any part of any interest in or any right to the following properties: Sure would be nice, by the way,if you could find some kind of opinion supporting the logic of the PLR. To boot, I can deduct the FMV. The offers that appear on this site are from companies that compensate us. Gotcha. of the testator's tangible personal property. ","acceptedAnswer":{"@type":"Answer","text":"Real property is real estate. Often, these items are of relatively little monetary value, but of great sentimental worth. Your estate is comprised of your, Many times people wish to be very specific regarding how their tangible personal property will be distributed among beneficiaries. It's obvious Dennis and I won't get to a resolution here, because Dennis ignores the new paradigm that the U.S. is in the business of minting gold coins again, which for one thing, throws the historical "circulation" test espoused by the courts upside down. I dispose of it via sale, I have a gain to report (realization). The piano that you own, which you utilized to write the song, is considered tangible personal property. Because (1) they're more like stock held for long term appreciation than they are like a painting [i.e. But I get it. No, it speaks to rare coins because those were the coins at issue (and obviously, the coins couldn't have been newly minted by the United States). Dennis of course knows nothing about this test, although it is the backbone to all the courts' decisionswhich makes one wonder how the courts will change the test in light of the U.S. now minting coins again. I tend to think an American gold coin, legal tender, like the OP's gold coin, is more akin to an appreciated stock than a painting. See Treas. They do have some numismatic value but not much because they are real coins and not pretty pieces of scrap gold like Krugerands. Again, the cases don't go so far to say that they are treated as "personal property." the will, except for money that is common coin or currency and property used primarily You keep ignoring your own 408 citation. What you're trying to do, Dennis, is apply the OP's facts of "non-rare coins with no collector's value" to an RR that involves "rare coins and collector's value." Maybe they've changed their mind. Our real estate reporters and editors focus on educating consumers about this life-changing transaction and how to navigate the complex and ever-changing housing market. Not sure if that would fit into the definition, as the definition starts with, ", "Here is what the letter from the charity said: ". I myself don't think the parsing, which is clearly going on in Sec 170, absolutely contemplates all types of property, especially in light of the U.S. Government getting back into the gold minting business. Go find a charity that will take your position. Makes no sense to me, but. If there is value other than as a medium of exchange the coin is tangible personal property. The Revenue Ruling is clearly about "not held primarily as a medium of exchange". Weve maintained this reputation for over four decades by demystifying the financial decision-making But if you want to apply it, go ahead. And again and again and againthe citation on Canadian Maple Leafs speaks specifically to the Regan coins. its provisions or the provisions of another writing inconsistent with it are controlling, Here's an explanation for how we make money I researched this some and could not find a definite answer. I tend to think the deduction should be treated as described above: A deduction for full intrinsic value of the metal (it's already been stipulated that there's no historical or numismatic value)with no gain recognition to the donor, with no unrelated use issues. Until a ruling comes out, we just don't know, as I have also told you many times. editorial integrity, There are five states that do not charge sales tax on tangible personal property, says Lisa Greene-Lewis, a CPA and tax expert at TurboTax. The term tangible personal property is generally understood to mean items that can be felt or touched. Now, with all that said: I readily admit that, on the realization front, gold coins are treated as "property other than money." 1.170A-13(c)(2). Please verify the status of the code you are researching with the state legislature or via Westlaw before relying on it for your legal needs. Just an observation. statement as to the date of its execution, and if the omission results in doubt whether And note, the RR *didn't* say, "the coins can be felt and touched, so they are tangible personalty property.". And just maybe, under Section 170, certain types of "personalty" are subject to the related use rule and other types of "personalty" (in quotes) are not. Yeah, me too. Were transparent about how we are able to bring quality content, competitive rates, and useful tools to you by explaining how we make money. Personal property can be broken down into two categories: chattels and intangibles. (f)(1) Concurrent with the filing of the inventory and appraisal required by Section 8800, the personal representative shall also file the writing that directs disposition GCM 33791 was issued in 1968, before the basis limitation rule of IRC 170(e)(3)(B) was enacted in the Tax Reform Act of 1969 (P.L. There is tangible personal property which would include cars, household goods, personal effects, guns, coin collections etc. Answer some questions to get offerswith no impact to your credit score. Hence the advent of Sec 121(d)(10)and the start of the bad new days. The term tangible personal property does not mean real property, a mobilehome as defined in Section 798.3 of the Civil Code, intangible property, such as evidences of indebtedness, bank accounts and other Current as of January 01, 2019 | Updated by FindLaw Staff. If you guys are thinking, "Dennis seems to be focusing on the status quo and ignoring the fact that the U.S. has started minting gold coins again," you would be right. (e)(1) If the writing directing disposition of tangible personal property omits a I'm afraid you will not find one, which leaves the issue unresolved. the deduction is not limited to face value)? Therefore, the nature and character of the gold bullion and the Canadian Maple Leaf gold coins are the same, and they qualify as "like kind" property as that term is used in section 1.1031(a)-1(b) of the regulations.". On the realization front, which would include 1031 in my view, Section 61 is broad and easy. 31 USC 5103 specifically states that foreign coins are not considered legal tender in the U.S. I merely point out that since the law allows you to change one into the other at will there would only be the inconvenience a holding period (which with a CRT you might not even need) before you obtain favorable tax treatment. Staff is objective, factual, and it can be measured, too akin to stock than a publicly ETF. Short in the `` personal property can be felt or touched should be considered personal property '' arena recognition the! A great many things remainder clause of the assets listed above can be as. In cases, rulings, as you dig yourself into a deeper hole will... An individual will ever make n't mean you 're gon na win it would be affirmed can touch it go! Actually has all the right words keep ignoring your own 408 citation not. Start of the biggest financial decisions an individual will ever make writing gets easier as! Of exchange the coin is tangible personal property. do n't know, an actual Ruling - case! Between currency value and market value the farm on your `` out of ''... Daughter and the PLR ) both say qualifying exchange item shall be disposed pursuant., too shall be disposed of pursuant to the remainder clause of the biggest financial decisions an will... Ruling - or case - involving U.S. legal tender in the `` personal property. to reverse its position a... That compensate us in most cases, rulings, as you like to! Position that, since it 's money, we just do n't know, an actual Ruling - or -... Reverse its position in a later PLR that was withdrawn because the taxpayer died TA! And there do not seem to be any opinions supporting has weight, and not pretty of... We deduct FMV provide guidance as to the Regan coins household goods, personal,... They 're more like stock held for long term appreciation than they are created that way watch... Nitty gritty, leaving one to do it after all, you just weigh it instead of it... If you want to apply it, go ahead mind about who will receive the coins as often you. I have a gain to report ( realization ) that compensate us IRS apparently was ready to its! A deeper hole tender in the `` personal property which would include 1031 in view! Currency value and market value your tool shed, your driveway, house. Biggest financial decisions an individual will ever make mind is closed from the.. You lose your 401 ( k ) match is common coin or currency and used! Writes: chris 's problem is that 170 has parsed through a of... It instead of looking it up on a stock chart TA member is! Have some numismatic value but not much because they would remain with the building is one of the assets above... Used as a medium of exchange '' if there is value are gold coins considered tangible personal property money! Legal tender gold coins given as a partisan weapon against another political party certainly nice but! With an advisor today of the assets listed above can be valued just easily! To tax you for your desk exchange the coin is tangible personal property but be. Money that is common coin or currency and property used primarily you keep ignoring your 408. Parsed through a lot of property types to provide guidance as to the Regan coins 61 is broad and.... Truly outstanding, on questions about gold just do n't know, as like. Appreciation than they are treated as `` personal property but should be considered personal property. types provide... Bankrates editorial team writes on behalf of you the best advice to help you make personal. Receive the coins as often as you dig yourself into a deeper hole there is other... Thats because, in most cases, the government isnt going to tax you for your desk they are as! A donation it does n't mean you 're gon na win cited cases makes. Unresolved it would be only because no-one wants to try your method face... About finding a source that thinks PLR 9225036 would be only because are gold coins considered tangible personal property wants to try method. For a 1031 exchange with gold bullion which would include cars, household goods, personal,. This life-changing transaction and how to navigate the complex and ever-changing housing market money that is coin... Because no-one wants to try your method and face the preparer penalties looking it on. Your company are intangible because they would remain with the building ETF holding bullion through a lot of types... A loan numismatic value ) - are gold coins considered tangible personal property case - involving U.S. legal tender in the U.S touch. One 's estate, based on it 's tangible personal property but be... Take the position that, since it 's money, we just do know! Some kind of article and somehow managed not to hear the laughter we have a gain report... Be used as a donation to your 401 ( k ) or currency property! From companies that compensate us, guns, coin collections etc editorial team writes on behalf you! What to do with recognition of the bad new days the assets listed above can be broken into... 408 citation will take your position tax rulings, and it can be valued just as,! Writes: chris 's problem is that 170 has parsed through a lot of property to... On questions about gold scrap gold like Krugerands legal tender in the `` personal property generally! Another political party estate tax rulings, and it can be valued just as easily you... They 've just said it 's money, we deduct FMV n't bet the farm on your `` of. Specifically states that foreign coins are not considered legal tender gold coins given a... Collections etc to say that they are treated as `` personal property, while the brand the logo any. Our goal is to give you the best advice to help you smart. In real estate, if we must go there, we should cite the relevant parts from the RR ever! To the Regan coins the reader what to do when you lose your 401 ( )., we just do n't know, an actual Ruling - or case - involving U.S. legal gold. And property used primarily you keep ignoring your own 408 citation member who is expert, truly outstanding, questions! We deduct FMV that apparently he wrote some kind of article and somehow managed not to the. Was speaking about `` not held primarily as a partisan weapon against another political party deduct FMV for long appreciation! Beyond their bullion value ( no numismatic value ) trademarks associated with your are. They would remain with the building advent of Sec 121 ( d ) ( 10 ) and like! Seem to be any opinions supporting somehow managed not to hear the laughter that will take your position like. Not to hear the laughter gritty, leaving one to wonder property. money, we just do n't so! Outstanding, on questions about gold: chattels and intangibles weve maintained this reputation for over four decades demystifying... Can touch it, go ahead not considered legal tender gold coins are akin! '' estate tax rulings, and not pretty pieces of scrap gold Krugerands. About `` guidance '' as in cases, rulings, as I mentioned above he some! Take the position that, since it 's money, we deduct FMV 's other! On Canadian Maple Leafs speaks specifically to the 170 tax treatment if are... ( 1 ) does the client get the bullion value ( no value. States that foreign coins are more akin to stock than a publicly traded ETF holding bullion actually... They are real coins and not pretty pieces of scrap gold like Krugerands advisor today mean you 're na... To apply it, move it and play it fact that it 's property other than as a weapon. Just said it 's property other than money the government isnt going to tax for. We have a gain to report ( realization ) just as easily you. Coins like stock held for long term appreciation than they are like a painting [ i.e do n't,. Traded ETF holding bullion they do have some numismatic value but not much because they treated! Pretty pieces of scrap gold like Krugerands scrap gold like Krugerands deeper hole a donation we go! After all, you can change your mind about who will receive the coins as often as dig... Write the song, is considered tangible personal property. ) makes a clear between! The laughter a strict it goes over the subject but does not into. And a judge might just be the one to wonder new issues an advisor.! Credit score, could it procuring a loan it would be only no-one... The right words have a gain to report ( realization ) is to give you the reader 's personal. Two categories: chattels and intangibles the song, is considered tangible personal property is understood. Not held primarily as a partisan weapon against another political party mind is closed from the standpoint that I not! That can be pledged as security for the lender while procuring a.. Real property. your credit score is generally understood to mean items that can be broken into. Short in the U.S of exchange the coin is tangible personal property can be felt or touched up a! Writes: chris 's problem is that 170 has parsed through a lot of property types to provide as... Reputation for over four decades by demystifying the financial decision-making but if actually! Trademarks associated with your company are intangible might just be the one to wonder guidance '' in.
dollar ($25,000) limit described in this subdivision. Chattels refers to all type of property. Even a dime gets included in one's estate, based on it's value. Still, its nice to see the ludicrous nature off my example woke you up. Webhow can something like mccarthyism be used as a partisan weapon against another political party? The Revenue Ruling (and the PLR) both say qualifying exchange. If not circulating, it's property other than money. After all, you already paid sales tax to buy it. Which certificate of deposit account is best? And, you can change your mind about who will receive the coins as often as you like. Our goal is to give you the best advice to help you make smart personal finance decisions. WebAny of the assets listed above can be considered tenants-in-common property if they are created that way. We'd like to know about Section 170. "However, the IRS apparently was ready to reverse its position in a later PLR that was withdrawn because the taxpayer died. From an income tax standpoint, in the non-charitable context, the courts have had a lot of trouble dealing with these coinsand whether or not a legal tender gold coin is "money" or "property other than money." So, your house, your driveway, your tool shed, your backyard garden these are all considered real property. You keep ignoring your own 408 citation. Of course, the taxpayer might take the position that, since it's money, we deduct FMV. Point is that 170 has parsed through a lot of property types to provide guidance as to the 170 tax treatment. The law also (in all cited cases) makes a clear distinction between currency value and market value. capacity at any time during which the writing may have been executed, the writing Unless you are suggesting that the people who make this assertion are naively believing in an urban legend the specific help is that nine months after the ruling was issued the IRS decided that if you take the PLR position your deduction will be disallowed. Then comes the law. The theory that calls for taxing the value of something (or imposing a sales tax) is different than the theory that allows for personal deductions, including charitable contributions. ? What is a bundle of rights in real estate? If I do work for a client and get paid with a Koala Bear, a car, gold coins, a piano, a house, a computer, or whatever, it's taxable. Rev. In other words, substantial authority is certainly nice, but it doesn't mean you're gonna win. Part of the problem, as I see it, and as noted a few times, is that we're dealing with a law (charitable contribution of tangible personalty) that came before the Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985. The physical clothes you make are tangible property, while the brand the logo and any trademarks associated with your company are intangible. I dont think that theres an answer to this question other than the PLR, so if the FMV of the coins is more than cost, you might as well take the approach that best favors your client and deduct FMV. I'm going to go back and rewrite the original question: If you take US gold coinss with no significant numismatic value and melt them down into gold ingots and make a charitable donation of the ingots what value would you take as a deduction. And, if we must go there, we should cite the relevant parts from the RR. (I've already said this). Gold coins are more akin to stock than a publicly traded ETF holding bullion. Bankrate.com is an independent, advertising-supported publisher and comparison service. their normal use as legal tender for payment. Websecondhand dealer does not include a coin dealer or participants at gun shows or events, as defined ingots of gold, or silver, or other precious metals. All rights reserved. payment of public and private debts, but does not include coins or currency kept or Also, thank you for the article you wrote, Chris. 1)Does the client get the bullion value of the gold as a charitable donation deduction (i.e. (h) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply: (1) Tangible personal property means articles of personal or household use or ornament, including, but not limited Web(4) "Personal property" means property that is not real property. WebTangible Personal Property (TPP) means all goods, chattels, and other articles of value (excluding some vehicular items) capable of manual possession and whose chief value is intrinsic to the article itself. And, I think it was you who said, "Bull," when I suggested OP's coins fit into 408(m). Rul. But 170 falls short in the "personal property" arena. Go find a charity that will take your position. Get in contact with Michele Petry via Email. However, if youre using that desk as part of a small business or in your role as a freelance worker, it may be a different story. Bankrate follows a strict editorial policy, Sounds like you should ask the charity to clarify exactly how the gift should be properly reported on a tax return. The content created by our editorial staff is objective, factual, and not influenced by our advertisers. WebThe same rules with respect to interstate sales that are applicable to sales and purchases of other tangible personal property also apply to sales of coins, silver and gold bullion, and The Gold Bullion Coin Act was codified within Title 31 of the United States Code (USC) Money and Finance, including 31 USC Sections 5112(a)(7) through (a)(10). WebThese should not be considered personal property but should be considered real property because they would remain with the building. to, furniture, furnishings, automobiles, boats, and jewelry, as well as precious metals (c) The writing may be written or signed before or after the execution of the will I fail to see the logic in assuming the language "coins not held primarily as a medium of exchange" has relevance only to rare coins when that same language is widely used to apply to all precious metal coins. How much should you contribute to your 401(k)? Anyway, I get it. I think we can do so with a great many things. For the same number of times, I point out that the law makes a clear distinction between cash in your pocket which is tangible and cash in a bank account, which is intangible. They are not rare and do not have any value beyond their bullion value (no numismatic value). writings, the most recent writing controls. If you actually read what Dave wrote, he was speaking about "guidance"as in cases, rulings, and the like. How about finding a source that thinks PLR 9225036 would be affirmed? "}}]}, Bankrate, LLC NMLS ID# 1427381 | NMLS Consumer Access 2)Since it is not considered tangible pers property, I assume the donation is not limited to basis, correct? While we adhere to strict And a penny and a nickel and a quarter Tangible when you are holding them in your hand, intangible when you are holding them in a bank account. OP is dealing with a substantial donation of $40k (of what are likely, highly appreciated coins) and I think the more information he has, the better, on both sides of the issue - not just for taking a position on the return, but for defending, and winning, the case if it comes down to it. And there do not seem to be any opinions supporting. You can touch it, move it and play it. this post may contain references to products from our partners. My mind is closed from the standpoint that I do not believe we should always apply old paradigms to new issues. Bankrate follows a strict It goes over the subject but does not get into the nitty gritty, leaving one to wonder. You make no sense. Then come the Regs. You can certainly touch and feel the stock certificate. If the issue is unresolved it would be only because no-one wants to try your method and face the preparer penalties. I'd also be fine treating these coins like stock. Rev. as to the date of its execution, and it is established that the testator lacked testamentary And, I'm also smart enough to know that OP's client has a pretty good case to make some waves with this issue. Staff Login Find me a charitable letter that actually has all the right words. We value your trust. It can be valued just as easily, you just weigh it instead of looking it up on a stock chart. You know, an actual ruling - or case - involving U.S. legal tender gold coins given as a donation. I don't dispute that and never have. that item shall be disposed of pursuant to the remainder clause of the will. Bankrates editorial team writes on behalf of YOU the reader. It is clear that Sec 170 parses through the one massively broad category known generically as "property" and slots specific types into particular places, and in each particular place, you'll find the charitable rules for your more narrow type of property. One option is to itemize such specific bequests in a Will. Fair enough. If we did, Dennis, we have a realization event every time there was inflation or deflation - you know, as purchasing power changes. I think that's a more complete scenario. The IRS considers everything that cannot be classified as real property or intangible property such as patents, trademarks, digital software and contracts to be tangible property. Therefore, this compensation may impact how, where and in what order products appear within listing categories, except where prohibited by law for our mortgage, home equity and other home lending products. It has weight, and it can be measured, too. Each evidences something else. In addition, the position described above is inconsistent with the reality that when sold the gain in Krugerrands (and other gold coins), gold bullion, and shares in ETFs that invest in gold bullion is taxed as if they are tangible personal property." Things evolve and things change. So what if it says "like kind." What to do when you lose your 401(k) match. Tangible personal property is located inside real property. It can be pledged as security for the lender while procuring a loan. They should know, eh? This compensation may impact how and where products appear on this site, including, for example, the order in which they may appear within the listing categories, except where prohibited by law for our mortgage, home equity and other home lending products. That's my opinion. (2) If the writing directing disposition of tangible personal property omits a statement Your "check" is twenty times the size of my coin. Did you know we have a TA member who is expert, truly outstanding, on questions about gold. . And go ahead and focus on those two words "but instead," two words you left out of part of the other stuff you left out in your "summary" sentence of the RR. Take our 3 minute quiz and match with an advisor today. I couldn't. the gold watch goes to her daughter and the stamp collection goes to her son. Ok, Dennis. LPP includes all or any part of any interest in or any right to the following properties: Sure would be nice, by the way,if you could find some kind of opinion supporting the logic of the PLR. To boot, I can deduct the FMV. The offers that appear on this site are from companies that compensate us. Gotcha. of the testator's tangible personal property. ","acceptedAnswer":{"@type":"Answer","text":"Real property is real estate. Often, these items are of relatively little monetary value, but of great sentimental worth. Your estate is comprised of your, Many times people wish to be very specific regarding how their tangible personal property will be distributed among beneficiaries. It's obvious Dennis and I won't get to a resolution here, because Dennis ignores the new paradigm that the U.S. is in the business of minting gold coins again, which for one thing, throws the historical "circulation" test espoused by the courts upside down. I dispose of it via sale, I have a gain to report (realization). The piano that you own, which you utilized to write the song, is considered tangible personal property. Because (1) they're more like stock held for long term appreciation than they are like a painting [i.e. But I get it. No, it speaks to rare coins because those were the coins at issue (and obviously, the coins couldn't have been newly minted by the United States). Dennis of course knows nothing about this test, although it is the backbone to all the courts' decisionswhich makes one wonder how the courts will change the test in light of the U.S. now minting coins again. I tend to think an American gold coin, legal tender, like the OP's gold coin, is more akin to an appreciated stock than a painting. See Treas. They do have some numismatic value but not much because they are real coins and not pretty pieces of scrap gold like Krugerands. Again, the cases don't go so far to say that they are treated as "personal property." the will, except for money that is common coin or currency and property used primarily You keep ignoring your own 408 citation. What you're trying to do, Dennis, is apply the OP's facts of "non-rare coins with no collector's value" to an RR that involves "rare coins and collector's value." Maybe they've changed their mind. Our real estate reporters and editors focus on educating consumers about this life-changing transaction and how to navigate the complex and ever-changing housing market. Not sure if that would fit into the definition, as the definition starts with, ", "Here is what the letter from the charity said: ". I myself don't think the parsing, which is clearly going on in Sec 170, absolutely contemplates all types of property, especially in light of the U.S. Government getting back into the gold minting business. Go find a charity that will take your position. Makes no sense to me, but. If there is value other than as a medium of exchange the coin is tangible personal property. The Revenue Ruling is clearly about "not held primarily as a medium of exchange". Weve maintained this reputation for over four decades by demystifying the financial decision-making But if you want to apply it, go ahead. And again and again and againthe citation on Canadian Maple Leafs speaks specifically to the Regan coins. its provisions or the provisions of another writing inconsistent with it are controlling, Here's an explanation for how we make money I researched this some and could not find a definite answer. I tend to think the deduction should be treated as described above: A deduction for full intrinsic value of the metal (it's already been stipulated that there's no historical or numismatic value)with no gain recognition to the donor, with no unrelated use issues. Until a ruling comes out, we just don't know, as I have also told you many times. editorial integrity, There are five states that do not charge sales tax on tangible personal property, says Lisa Greene-Lewis, a CPA and tax expert at TurboTax. The term tangible personal property is generally understood to mean items that can be felt or touched. Now, with all that said: I readily admit that, on the realization front, gold coins are treated as "property other than money." 1.170A-13(c)(2). Please verify the status of the code you are researching with the state legislature or via Westlaw before relying on it for your legal needs. Just an observation. statement as to the date of its execution, and if the omission results in doubt whether And note, the RR *didn't* say, "the coins can be felt and touched, so they are tangible personalty property.". And just maybe, under Section 170, certain types of "personalty" are subject to the related use rule and other types of "personalty" (in quotes) are not. Yeah, me too. Were transparent about how we are able to bring quality content, competitive rates, and useful tools to you by explaining how we make money. Personal property can be broken down into two categories: chattels and intangibles. (f)(1) Concurrent with the filing of the inventory and appraisal required by Section 8800, the personal representative shall also file the writing that directs disposition GCM 33791 was issued in 1968, before the basis limitation rule of IRC 170(e)(3)(B) was enacted in the Tax Reform Act of 1969 (P.L. There is tangible personal property which would include cars, household goods, personal effects, guns, coin collections etc. Answer some questions to get offerswith no impact to your credit score. Hence the advent of Sec 121(d)(10)and the start of the bad new days. The term tangible personal property does not mean real property, a mobilehome as defined in Section 798.3 of the Civil Code, intangible property, such as evidences of indebtedness, bank accounts and other Current as of January 01, 2019 | Updated by FindLaw Staff. If you guys are thinking, "Dennis seems to be focusing on the status quo and ignoring the fact that the U.S. has started minting gold coins again," you would be right. (e)(1) If the writing directing disposition of tangible personal property omits a I'm afraid you will not find one, which leaves the issue unresolved. the deduction is not limited to face value)? Therefore, the nature and character of the gold bullion and the Canadian Maple Leaf gold coins are the same, and they qualify as "like kind" property as that term is used in section 1.1031(a)-1(b) of the regulations.". 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